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TOPIC: Emeralds

Emeralds 2 years 10 months ago #4241

  • Ole Grubstake
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Was called last night, and it seems the Fishers have filed a claim in response to Mr. Horans filing on the Emeralds. The have filed a claim intervening and claim they are Atocha Emeralds. Tsk tsk. Looks like this will be in court for a while. Glad someone stepped up to the plate and is disputing this debacle.
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 10 months ago #4245

  • Au_Dreamers
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I guess that means they believe they were Pirated?
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 8 months ago #6033

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Gems coming back
Emeralds must be here for court case
BY ADAM LINHARDT Citizen Staff
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Determining ownership of a cache of emeralds found in the Gulf of Mexico two years ago, purported to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars, may come down to whether Key West's most well-known treasure hunting family can prove they have a legal claim to them.

U.S. District Court Judge James Lawrence King on Tuesday told attorneys on both sides that Kim Fisher, son of the late treasure-hunting legend Mel Fisher and head of the Delaware-based salvage company Motivation Inc., needs to cite case law stating the Fisher family has a legal claim to treasure from the Spanish galleon Nuestra SeƱora de Atocha and its sister ship Santa Margarita, even if such treasure is found outside the "scatter trail." That is the line of treasure or artifacts that has been shifting off the main ballast piles due to currents and storms over the years.

Fisher filed a legal claim to the emeralds that treasure diver Jay Miscovich reportedly found in January 2010 about 40 miles northeast of the Atocha and Margarita sites, saying they came from the Atocha or Margarita, which Miscovich denies.

Once that matter is resolved, the judge may move forward in the discovery process, which would allow Fisher's experts to analyze the gemstones. Fisher wants to look at the emeralds, and his attorneys told the judge that if he does so and determines the stones didn't come from either shipwreck, he would drop his claim.

"Basically, all we want to do is have our experts look at those emeralds and if they determine they didn't come from the Atocha or the Margarita, then fine, we're out of there," Fisher said Friday. "But if they did come from those shipwrecks, then we have to talk."

The judge, who has been presiding over Fisher family treasure claims for the last 36 years, said that process will have to wait for now.

Miscovich's attorney, David Paul Horan, said his client didn't want to turn over the emeralds for Fisher to examine until Fisher explains more fully in court why he thinks the gemstones came from the Atocha or Margarita. He called Fisher's desire to look at the gemstones a "fishing expedition."

The two wrecked Spanish galleons and the legalities surrounding their valuable cargo are familiar territory for Horan, who famously represented Mel Fisher in the 1970s and 80s. Horan was part of the legal team that argued in front of the U.S. Supreme Court and ultimately won the case against the state of Florida that allowed Fisher to keep the treasure he found.

Miscovich claims there's no way the emeralds came from the Fisher shipwrecks because they came from Colombian mines that did not operate when the Atocha or Margarita sailed. Both galleons sank in 1622 in a hurricane off Key West. Horan added that the stones Miscovich found are of a different quality than those that have been found on the Atocha or Margarita.

Fisher is quick to point out that Miscovich reportedly found the gemstones scattered on the sandy sea floor, absent any evidence of a nearby shipwreck other than the Atocha or Margarita. A piece from either shipwreck could have drifted in a storm and shifted miles to where Miscovich found them, Fisher said.

Despite Miscovich's desire that Fisher not examine the emeralds right now, he has voluntarily agreed to return them all to Key West because they must physically be in Florida's southern federal judicial district for the court to have jurisdiction over them.

Some of them are in a safe-deposit box in Key West, but many others are at a jewelry store in Pennsylvania and still more are in a New York City bank safe-deposit box, Horan told the judge. The emeralds in New York City and Pennsylvania are being returned to Key West with armed security, which has piqued the interest of "60 Minutes." The CBS news program will film some of the emeralds' travels for an upcoming broadcast, Horan said.

Nothing is certain in treasure salvage law and it appeared from the judge's questions for attorneys on both sides Tuesday that the opening salvos in this legal row are only just beginning.

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keysnews.com/node/37234
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 8 months ago #6034

  • Ole Grubstake
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If the Fishers lose it will be interesting to see what position Spain will take in this. Rumors are they are following this very closely. They might want back what was once theirs. JMHO Then there is the share of it the attorneys will get. lol Rumor has it the attorney in FL is working for a share. The clients couldn't afford a small claims action the last I heard. Only time will tell. Mean while back in Africa I'll be digging de gold and diamonds.
Grubby :laugh:
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6136

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Anything new on this emerald find near Key West in which over a hundred pounds of emeralds and a cannon ball were found just lying in the open on top of the sand ???
I find it absolutely incredible that after over 300 years, a Cannon Ball and all these emeralds were said to be found just lying out in the open on top of the sand.

keysnews.com/node/37095

While in Key West I was told that Jay Miscovich also had Jewelry made out of some of these emeralds and gave or sold them to some of his friends. I find it kind of odd that there is a lawsuit over ownership that is ongoing and a Court Order has been handed down to return all these emeralds to Key West and yet a man that hasn't been granted ownership by the Court may have given some of these emeralds to his investors in the form of Jewelry. Ole Grubstake do you know anything about this ?? I was told that you worked for Jay Miscovich right after these emeralds were reported to have been found ? :woohoo: :S
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6139

  • Ole Grubstake
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Yes there were various pieces made and distibuted to investors and friends. I know where and who has the pieces. Court will never see them as this whole thing stinks to hi heaven.
Grubby
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6141

  • scubasmitty
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NOT EVERYTHING ON THE TREASURE COAST BELONGS TO THE FISHERS ! :angry:
IN ORDER TO SUCCEED ACT AS IF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FAIL !!
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6142

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scubasmitty wrote:
NOT EVERYTHING ON THE TREASURE COAST BELONGS TO THE FISHERS ! :angry:

scubasmitty, I am not here to argue with anyone. But I will say this. "IF" any of those emeralds came from the Atocha. I strongly suggest that you read the Supreme Court Case that grants ownership of anything from the Atocha, no matter where it lies. Belongs to the Fisher's. In this case I think the Court was talking more about the Stern Castle of the Atocha that broke away after the second Hurricane and has not been found to date.

In my post, I was questioning how a cannon ball and over a hundred pounds of emeralds and Amethysts would EVER be found lying on top of the sand after 300 plus years. I also would like to know how Amethysts would ever be found on a Spanish Ship Wreck coming from Columbia. ( If you read the newspaper article you will see where the Attorney for Jay Miscovich states that the emeralds came from the Muzo region of Columbia.
Amethysts were never mined in Peru, Ecuador or Columbia. So please explain how Amethyst were also found with the emeralds and cannon ball. I'm still scratching my head about that one.
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6143

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Old man..i was at the Fisher museum in Key West yesterday. On the second floor top shelf in the glass cabinet nice purple gemstones. says 'ATOCHA AMETHYST'. I took a pic and will look for it, but took about 100 of them because it was my first time there ! I read that the Manila Galleons brought much Amethyst from Asia[ where it has been mined for over 2000 years] to the Pacific coast of South America and along with Ming pottery was traded to the Spanish. This is why Ming pottery has been found on the 1715 fleet and other Caribbean wrecks, the Spanish were sending it home to Spain. Amethyst is also mined in Brazil which was under Spanish control and shipped with emeralds. Dont think the Fishers would display this in their museum if it wasnt from the Atocha in 1622!
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6144

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Sorry i forgot to say. Also alot of AMETHYST jewelry in the museum on the Atocha and i have seen alot of it on display at the 1715 fleet state Mclarty museum and Mel Fisher MUSEUM IN Sebastion Fl
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6145

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techdiver wrote:
Old man..i was at the Fisher museum in Key West yesterday. On the second floor top shelf in the glass cabinet nice purple gemstones. says 'ATOCHA AMETHYST'. I took a pic and will look for it, but took about 100 of them because it was my first time there ! I read that the Manila Galleons brought much Amethyst from Asia[ where it has been mined for over 2000 years] to the Pacific coast of South America and along with Ming pottery was traded to the Spanish. This is why Ming pottery has been found on the 1715 fleet and other Caribbean wrecks, the Spanish were sending it home to Spain. Amethyst is also mined in Brazil which was under Spanish control and shipped with emeralds. Dont think the Fishers would display this in their museum if it wasnt from the Atocha in 1622!

techdiver, You are absolutely right. Amethysts were mined in Brazil. I Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Spain Never Mined anything in Brazil. Portugal has always colonized Brazil, not Spain. Yes Amethysts came in on Manila Galleons, but Manila Galleons did not carry emeralds from the Muzo Mines.
I would also like you and Jay to tell me how a cannon ball. ( Which if it is analyzed , I wonder if it came from Woman Key. Just a thought.) was found lying on top of the sand along with over a hundred pounds of emeralds. Still doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6146

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I know nothing about cannonballs. i have never found one. But thought Spain seized ALL of South America an called it 'Brazilia'. But i dont know why you think emeralds and cannonball cant be found on top of the sand. i have seen hundreds of thousands of all types of artifacts in and ON TOP OF the sand. there are many pics on the site of wrecks with artifacts strewn ON TOP OF the sand.especially in areas where the sand is only a few inches deep then bedrock or mud. what about the 'ATOCHA AMETHYST '
"ANY IDEAS WHY THEY WOULD BE ON THE 1622 ATOCHA?
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6147

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In 1494 the 'Treaty of Tordesillas' was signed between Spain and Portugal. They split Brazil with Spain getting the much larger piece. The Spanish immediately began exploiting all the natural resources. Iam not here to argue with anyone. but if someone quotes something as 'fact' please try to be accurate. and answer a question straightforeward.like how was there AMETHYST ON THE ATOCHA if you say its impossible?
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6148

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techdiver wrote:
I know nothing about cannonballs. i have never found one. But thought Spain seized ALL of South America an called it 'Brazilia'. But i dont know why you think emeralds and cannonball cant be found on top of the sand. i have seen hundreds of thousands of all types of artifacts in and ON TOP OF the sand. there are many pics on the site of wrecks with artifacts strewn ON TOP OF the sand.especially in areas where the sand is only a few inches deep then bedrock or mud. what about the 'ATOCHA AMETHYST '
"ANY IDEAS WHY THEY WOULD BE ON THE 1622 ATOCHA?

Here is a History lesson for you on Brazil. Spain did not own Brazil. Portugal did.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_colonization_of_the_Americas.
Are you admitting that the emeralds came from the Atocha???
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6149

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OMG NO ! I think there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that these are atocha emeralds. 40 miles againt the Gulf Stream. have you ever dove out there ? i have over 100 times it is very very strong and the farther out the stronger it gets.and the 2 1622 hurricanes were blowing totally in the other direction. over 5000 sq miles of ocean between the atocha and this emerald wreck. there are hundreds of wrecks in between the two.there are also hundreds of ships that never made it back to the old world..spanish, dutch,british and frence that had emeralds onboard [especially spanish]. NOAA ..about a month ago published an article of the new oil drilling regs and stated that there are over 2100 known wrecks in the Gulf of Mexico and with the unknown wrecks possibly over 10,000. my opinion is. the fishers had there 30 yrs of fame and its time others with wonderful discoveries come foreward and not pirate the treasure to other countries and sell it on the blackmarket because the us admiralty process is too long,,diffucult and expensive. only my opinion
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6150

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techdiver wrote:
Old man..i was at the Fisher museum in Key West yesterday. On the second floor top shelf in the glass cabinet nice purple gemstones. says 'ATOCHA AMETHYST'. I took a pic and will look for it, but took about 100 of them because it was my first time there ! I read that the Manila Galleons brought much Amethyst from Asia[ where it has been mined for over 2000 years] to the Pacific coast of South America and along with Ming pottery was traded to the Spanish. This is why Ming pottery has been found on the 1715 fleet and other Caribbean wrecks, the Spanish were sending it home to Spain. Amethyst is also mined in Brazil which was under Spanish control and shipped with emeralds. Dont think the Fishers would display this in their museum if it wasnt from the Atocha in 1622!

I should be ashamed with myself for toying with people, but hey that's life. It is obvious to me that you work with Jay Miscovich and I'm guessing that you are the person that likes to brag that he is Jay's " operations manager."
Really doesn't matter, you proved my point. YOU are the one saying that it is a Spanish Galleon. Either a Manila Galleon or one from South America. Did you ever stop to think for one minute that Spain is well aware of this emerald find and from what I hear, they are just waiting for everything to be salvaged before they lay claim to everything ?? You're only hope in my opinion is to make a deal with the Fisher's.
I won't be responding to any more posts on this thread. I think I made my point. B)
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6151

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Iam no operations manager for anyone. and never have been and dont work for and never have worked for the diving doc that we have all read about. i have NO IDEA what countries ship it is. a lesson.Manila Galleons came across the PACIFIC ocean and traded with all the islanders and to the west coast of southamerica not in the Caribbean . SO IT ISNT A mANILA gALLEON. rEAD THE PUBLIC COURT DOCS, FED jUDGE kING said if the fishers dont have any strong 'case law'..not just a wishful 'fishing expedition' be Feb 15th they are out of the case and therefore the diving doc owns 100% of the treasure. thats why the doc is bringing all the gems from new york and the jewelry back to the southern district of fl so the judge can award it all to him. the judge must have it here in his district to give him the award. i will bet you all a beer the fishers are out of this case !
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6152

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Old man
It's obvious this techi is here to taunt us, let him blab all he wants, we know the truth you and I. I have dove many times on a Manilla galleons here in the Pacific. Have yet to find an amythist. They were mostly sent from South America. If this wreck is what he claims it to be, Where is the jade?If it was a western South American transfer where is the Magellan pottery like I found on the El Capitana? Like the wreck of the Maravilla. Where's the silver coins that would have been present or any gold coins the passengers might have squirrled away?If it's a wreck why only a cannon ball? Where's the cannon? Where's the ships fittings? You and I have dove enough wreck sites not to be fooled by this garbage. Grubby This image is hidden for guests. Please log in or register to see it.
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6156

Gentlemen, TreasureWorks Forum rules prohibit personal attacks of any kind and all our members are entitled to have differing opinions. Every one of our members is also free to express those opinions as long as it is done respectfully. I have deleted the remarks that were in violation of our policy.

Thanks

LP
To Swim Is Human, To Dive Is SUBLIME
To bag a bug in total darkness . . . . is just the next step.
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Re: Emeralds 2 years 7 months ago #6157

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Sir-I have talked to the Fishers and they are only doing their feudiciary duty for the stock holders. Once the emeralds are proven not to be Atocha emeralds the claim will be dropped. Then this litigation can proceed in another direction. Like Spain's interest. This is bound to be tied up for years. Only the attorneys will win.
Grubby
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