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TOPIC: The Sacambaya treasure

Re: The Sacambaya treasure 6 years 3 months ago #12770

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Good morning

Wet and cold for Kanacka today so..

Continuing the yarn..

Stratford Jolly in his book did a rough hand drawn illustration map of the site showing the Key landmarks

There is a little controversy as to where Jolly has placed the egg shaped stone as some had claimed the stone was blown up by Prodgers in his search.

The location claimed by Jolly had too many promising places to dig. Sanders a mining engineer his methods was not as sound when he came to exploring the site. He was relying on a German dowser making decision on where to dig by photographing the site sending the photographs back to German and waiting for a reply. hardly a scientific approach to the problem especially for a mining engineer.

Back home in England there was rising criticism of the whole expensive project.

And yet in their spare moments they manged to explore the countryside. Finding the cave with skeletons remains and fortress and the priory of cutti where treasure allegedly recovery years earlier.
Sanders , Jolly as well as others visited MT Sapo.

It was later claimed that MT Sapo was a gold mine. In fact it was mine that mined alluvial gemstones and was called Cerro Sapo gemstone Mine. Not far from Plauzula monastery alleged ruins there was a gold mine still being worked called The Cocapata Mine.There had been extensive mine working over several centuries and also in the area was another gold mine called Tres Tertillas which was believed to originally been an Inca gold mine.

Sanders and his team dug extensively at various locations at the site with no real method of exploration or understanding what was happening at the site. It was a classic treasure hunting expedition that was the for runner of the disastrous and disorderly affairs of the 1930's. sanders failing to have a cohesive plan for exploration of the site brought disillusionment to the rest of the team. Who began question Sanders leadership...

To be continued

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Re: The Sacambaya treasure 6 years 3 months ago #12800

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Hello Again

Sanders conviction that there treasure at Sacambaya was heightened when his blacksmith claimed that a party of Turks and Armenians visited the site in 1927 with a primitive metal detector and the only response was at the square stone heap. However there was no evidence of these claims other than hearsay rumor. Sacambay lived every thing it was said to be. As hot as hell during day falling well below freezing during the night. The expedition member soon came down to what the doctor of the party Sacambayitis.a sickness of living there.

Sanders dug and dug along several parts of the stone square heap only to be thwarted by groundwater in the excavations. They used there hydrological pumps to no avail as soon as they stopped the excavation would fill back up again.

Depression soon set in.Even the Bolivian nationals eager for a few bucks pay from these foolish English nationals soon began to to tire of this quest. One thing all the men hated was sanders forbid and alcohol consumption on the expedition so the men had to sit out the long cold tedious night with a drink. Some of Bolivian workers revolted and crept off to get drunk.

The leader and few others of this indiscretion was fired and soon sent packing.

However it was all no no avail..

Sanders said himself Work was finally halted when the rains came. "I could not tell you how I feel? Heartbroken is a very mild word for it. There are moments i feel my hair has gone white." he and his party of treasure hunters had shifted nearly 40000 tons of rock over 8 months without the slightest evidence of treasure.

As the rains came at last sanders had to Admit defeat he finally came to the conclusion that the site was simply too vast to search without more accurate information. He shut down the operation with most of the party returning to England.

Sanders was the last to leave as he was jailed by Bolivian authorities as they had been opening his mail and suspected he was plotting overthrow the government in Bolivia. He was finally allowed to leave the country in 1929. Any hope of a second digging season was dash when arriving back in London with investors crying fraud and critics calling it all a scam. And hope of a return was shattered by the stock market crash of 1929, that brought in the great depression of the 1930's.

The catholic Newspaper was the loudest among them. This image is hidden for guests. Please log in or register to see it.

One thing about treasure hunting is go out on these expedition with high hopes. It is another return to face the critics for such as quest. Sanders had failed not just failed but spectacularly. One can only imagine what it did to his career and to his own personal credibility.

However there is one final tale to disclose in this sorry tale. Some of the expedition members kept in touch with each other. Sanders had left some documents and relics with one of expedition members until they had a falling out over the storage costs.In which most of the items was thrown out. years later.

Sanders contacted his old friend and claimed that one of the expedition members had discovered the entrance and kept quiet. And secretly took part in an American expedition in 1939/1940. He met the ex expedition member in 1949 and was told the story.

They had return to Sacambaya in 1939/1940 and made a rough airstrip along the river bank and flew gold out in secret until they were caught by the Bolivian government who took over the site. The Americans had managed to take about 5 million dollars worth of treasure before they was caught. The entrance of the tunnel was just above the square stone heap. Sanders had tried to get money of this man but was thrown out of his castle built from the proceeds of treasure in La jolly California. This ex expedition members share was 1.5 million dollars.

Was this a true story or just a desperate story to explain why Sanders a broken man who failed so miserably?

to be continued....

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Last Edit: 6 years 3 months ago by Kanacki. Reason: clarity
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Re: The Sacambaya treasure 6 years 3 months ago #12841

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Hello All

It seems Sacambay treasure legend fell into a slumber all forgotten, during the war years. And even as world rebuilt herself after the devastation of war she still slept. Like a sleeping temptress having a siesta awaiting the next lot of treasure seekers.

In the mid 1960,s Tony Morrison and Mark Howell had discovered the story and went to find out for them selves. They made the final 40 miles from Quime at night during rain and hail.

They had brought a 2 box detector with them. They had heard a story that the Jesuits had allegedly diverted the river over the tunnel entrance. So they inspected the river banks for evidence they had no luck.

They eve searched the alleged chapel with no success. Howell and Morrison climbed the hill that they believed where the egg shaped stone was, Caballo Cunco but was not sure if it was the correct hill?

Returning down to the valley floor and across the river they explored the ruins of Plazula. A little away from chapel near the ruins of what appeared to have been a house they discovered with their two box detector a Piece of copper plate. Their stay at the site was cut short as the rains had come and they were forced to leave the valley. Many years later they considered another visit but as life moves on it never eventuated.

So ended Morrison and Howell visit.

Over the years several other party's have came and gone. The hill appears to have kept her secrets well. This image is hidden for guests. Please log in or register to see it.

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Last Edit: 6 years 3 months ago by Kanacki. Reason: clarity
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Re: The Sacambaya treasure 6 years 2 months ago #12925

Well Kanacker ?? more ?? Incidentally what's this about your marinating ability being hard on teeth? I hope that it isn't a hold over from when you were specializing in PNG highlands cuisine ?

Don Jose de La Mancha
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Re: The Sacambaya treasure 6 years 2 months ago #12932

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Hello Don Jose

Hello Don Jose I have been busy. I will be heading back to Townsville in a month off sailing. I had Drumbeat out of the water getting a refit and then a journey.

However I will finish the story and not leave you in suspense.....

We found at Sacayamba the same material as Marl Howell did and other expeditions so I have informed by Crow had found the same materials.

Hardluck and me found that the the mineralization of the ground was high in copper silver and gold. With many old mines near by it appear they had been mined during various eras dating back to Inca time as well as colonial period. So we we have old adobe colonial build build of remain of old Inca habitation. The last industrial activity I believe was late as 1814.

For example the cooper alloy plate that appeared to be drilled is not from Inca Period. Incas did not have the technology to drill through cast metal. However there was an earlier Inca period of smelting of copper and tine and exquisite artifacts have been found.

Later period was the discovery of small concentrated copper lodes the was relatively worked out in quite a short time. However the copper had a high amount of gold and silver which was processed at Plazula. In other world between late18th century and early 19th century there was small scale copper smelting at the site.

The ore was crush by labors into small fragments by hand carted down from the mine sites via a cable system with buckets to a small early reverberatry furnace that melted the ore into what we call blister, blister is about 95-97% copper the rest is other metals.Work that went on there was by no means to the scale of English industrial revolution standards. However what was produced there was used for local needs in upper Peru.

Evidence is we found hundreds of tree stumps on hills side above on one part of Sacambaya. Their was one side of the still denuded of trees compared to other sides of the valley. This suggests trees was cut down to fuel the furnace and charcoal was used to suck the oxygen out of the copper blister in its molten state.

Hardluck took some samples of growth ring on one of the treasure dating estimated at some point growth was stunted by pollution from industrial activity. roughly from mid 18th century to early 19th century growth of tree was inhibit by Suffer Dioxide released by copper smelting.

The copper was cast into primitive sheets with lugs Part of by product of copper smelting was sulfur dioxide in soot like form it is high acidic went mixed with water you have Sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid was used in a leach process of remove in purities out of copper such a silver and gold.

Blister copper would be sat in tank of acid and the reaction create a small electrical current call When copper is made from sulphide ores by the first method above, it is impure. The blister copper is first treated to remove any remaining sulfur (trapped as bubbles of sulfur dioxide in the copper - hence "blister copper") and then cast into anodes for refining using electrolysis. And hence as per photo of bits of copper, the pieces of copper found by various searchers at the site with holes. The holes in the copper was in short from sulfur bubbles in the copper blister.

All copper water is recycled through the process. It appears this small smelting operation of copper and extraction of gold and silver this could of been reheated and granulated into an iron bucket of water. part of the Bolivian Jesuit reductions could been involved in this work. It is a undisputed fact that That Jesuits in Paraguay taught silver smithing it is quiet possible some of the Germanic Jesuits in Bolivia had metallurgical skills and created smelting service for local mines. payment would of been partial share in the mineral ore smelter operations in gold and silver..

Sir Humphrey Davies was credited to have discovered the electrolysis in 1809. Some say he gained knowledge of this process of this through Jesuit priest and put a patient on the process.Electrolysis could possible been used much earlier than first thought by Jesuits in Bolivia.Over time this could be a possible explanation of how the Jesuits such treasure without officially mining.

Here is an illustrations on how the small smelting furnace would of looked like. Naturally the remains year later would appear to similar to the style of church or chapel. Perhaps that is what caused the confusion Plauzla was monastery?

And what of the treasure. Well Hardluck digging in the libraries of old monasteries found some strange document. It appears the treasure was recovered in when the Jesuits came back and sent it to Sana Peru. the original chart was still around and that was telling of the original concealment.

What happened after it reached Sana in 1814? Well that another yarn my friends.

And incidentally we did find the cave. this had the bones for all ages. Most died either by mining accidents during the dangerous mine and health practices of the day. not an inspired execution by the Jesuits.Most showed sign of surfer dioxide poison in the condition of their teeth on the skulls.

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Last Edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Kanacki. Reason: clarity
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 3 weeks ago #18697

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Any idea how long a corda is?
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 3 weeks ago #18701

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You can make a rope any length you want.
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 3 weeks ago #18703

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Thanks, I understand that a corda is a rope... The Sacambaya story talks about a corda as a unit of measure... I am asking how long is the corda that they referred to...
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 2 weeks ago #18705

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Well, cordelleros used a corda of 1 vara in their measuring, and the vara is about 137 feet, so the 5 corda depth would be about 685 feet, but the 'recovery' story talks about 900 being dug.
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 2 weeks ago #18707

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A vara is equal to about 1 yard, not 137 feet...
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 2 weeks ago #18715

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Yes, must be mixing things up. The vara was a variable measurement ranging from about 32 inches to about 43 inches depending on locality. But still, the cordilleros used a corda that was about 137 feet long.
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The Sacambaya treasure 2 years 1 week ago #18752

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As the site is so vast, unforgiving and rough to search, is the deroterro/instruction and, of course, the treasure itself, "real" to begin with?

Prodgers, Sanders even Howell and Morrison, all attempted to find the hoard based on the same set of details and information.

Even today's up to date and highly-efficient technology will still be of limited use unless a better and truer understanding of the story behind the legend is made and acknowledged.
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The Sacambaya treasure 1 year 10 months ago #19028

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Hi,

I'm from Bolivia, and my grandmother was from a town called Cavari, near to Sacambaya. I remember that she told us stories about the gringos looking for a treasure. She was born in 1921.

Well, Discovery Channel was in Bolivia for 3 months filming a documentary, it will be aired on april 2018... they use a hint of a jesuit monk that declares in Santiago, Chile in 1738 the existence of the treasure. This is the transcription in spanish:

Santiago de Chile, 4 de diciembre del año del Señor 1738.

Descargo de conciencia por el Con-vento de Sacambaya - Reverendo Padre Comendador de la Compañía de Jesús y Conquistador de los 32 pueblos de Mo-xos, por la Audiencia Real nuestro politi-cario de Charcas, por la gracia de Dios.

Fray Diego de Olivar, residente en la vera del río Sacambaya, compenetración de Ayopaya, declara en la última hora de agonía y dice: Que el mismo año de 1738, se dictó un Decreto Pontificio, Clemente Sanjuanete, para la expulsión de los Jesuitas de todas las comunidades de América, que fue el 18 de agosto a horas una de la tarde, para que seamos remitidos así descalzos a una isla de Roma, de donde yo me extravié asegurando todo el caudal en el mismo convento.

Siete hermanos marcharon y fueron ahorcados en Roma, quienes pertenecie-ron al coro de Martínez, por inocentes; de donde yo confieso: en la capilla a mano derecha, hay cinco copas de oro, trabajadas por mis propias manos, más adentro, en la sacristía, hay una copa grande, con tres correas de cinchones de hierro a tres varas de hondura, donde están depositados dos vasos sagrados del convento y ochenta mil en moneda blanca.

El oro en pepitas fue recogido del Valle Alto, donde teníamos que fundar una ciudad, por su buen clima y su llanura, los nombres puestos por nosotros, en el costado ha de haber un cerro llamado Tutinqui, donde se trepa por todas partes, en la punta se encontrará una pampichuela grande a manera de una plaza, donde quedaron tapados el oro y la chafalonía. Más abajo se transformará al lado del oriente, donde encontrarán a vuelta de una piedra o puerta grande, que ni en mil años se desplomará, porque está tapada por dentro con una piedra grande, donde encontrarán una porción de huesos, donde hay la piedra, se tumbará hacia adentro, allí se encontrará cinco mil quinien-tos quintales de oro (5.500 qq.) y la grandeza que Dios puso en la tierra.

Lo que quiero que disfruten en mi nombre y se acuerden con una misa a San Gregorio y los demás hermanos que fueron ahorcados en Roma.

Que expreso en descargo de conciencia, sus nombres que me subsiguen, Fray Diego de Olivar, Fray Gregorio Valdez, Fray Pedro Cuvay, Martínez Orbasi, Fray Agustín Oliva, Fray Runualdo Peña Soliz, Fray Carlos Bascopé y Fray Parisimo Buchini.
Last Edit: 1 year 10 months ago by zapatarosso.
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The Sacambaya treasure 1 year 10 months ago #19029

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Hello,

Thank you for posting that interesting piece.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, The Discovery Channel may have uncovered, but it is highly doubtful anything of value or substance was found.

The story itself is an amazing account of a bygone era around intriguing religious machinations, secret mining and wealth, Crown court envy and successful endeavours.

The expeditions by Prodgers and then Sanders were well documented, but has the 'story' got any basis in fact and historical evidence to reinforce its claims?
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