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TOPIC: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine

The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 10 months ago #4476

  • Kanacki
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Of all the treasure legends of the wild west, the Dutchman mine legend is a superstar among treasure legends. There is no tale that has entized so many men to risk thier lives in the heat and the wilds of desert so much as this legend. People have spent thier lives searching for this elusive treasure, some have killed for it and others have died for it. a treasure legend of greed murder misery and death....

All the making of a good hollywood movies. Enjoy...

The “Dutchman” was actually a German named Jakob Walz. He was allegedly educated as a mining engineer in Heidelberg, worked in Prussia, Australia and California before moving onto Arizona in 1862. While working as a miner for a mining company, he fell in love with a beautiful Apache girl named Ken-tee

. Many believe that he and other miners were smuggling gold out of the mine for themselves. The mine owners had the miner’s homes searched and found hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gold, but none on the Dutchman. It is thought that Ken-tee helped Walz hide the gold he smuggled out. In any case, he was fired.

Walz and Ken-tee settled in a small community near the Superstition Mountains. One day they left and returned weeks later with burros laden with gold. They made the arrangements to have to gold shipped to mint in San Francisco. Where this gold actually came from has never been proven.

Walz never talked, but the Apaches believed that the secret they kept about the gold mine had been betrayed by Ken-tee. They raided the Walz’s home and took Ken-tee. Walz and his neighbors pursued them and freed Ken-tee, but not before the Apache had cut out her tongue. She died in the Dutchman’s arms.Walz became a hard-drinking loner. He became famous as the man who knew the location of untold riches and too bitter to claim them. The price of fame and fortune?

Three years after Ken-tee’s death, another German arrived in Phoenix. Walz had probably sent for Jacob Weiser. The two seemed to be close. Weiser was a carpenter by trade. He was outgoing and became a popular figure in Phoenix. It has been claimed that weiser was related to waltz?

One day the two of the disappeared. This must have been difficult to do, because everyone was curious about the location of the Dutchman’s gold and he was pretty regularly followed. They returned about a month later and sent off sacks full of gold to the mint in San Francisco.

Right away they set back out for the Superstition Mountains. They had gathered more gold and were camped on their return trip when the Apache attacked. Walz escaped with only the very little clothing he was sleeping in. Weiser got away also, but with an arrow through his upper arm and imbedded in his chest. He made it to a doctor but died by morning.

The Dutchman still went back on occasion to retrieve gold. He had eventually sent over $250,000 worth of gold to the San Francisco mint. Although he was never tried for any murders, some of those that tried to follow him to his secret were never heard from again. It was considered dangerous to get too close when he was going out.

At the time of his death in October of 1891, the Dutchman was a sad figure. He had lost everything in life he had valued except his gold. He even confessed to killing his own nephew. He had him brought over from Germany but then feared he would give away the location of the gold.

Julia Thomas, a kind black woman, had taken him in to her home and was caring for him. On his deathbed the left $15,000 and the treasure direction to her. She spent the rest of her life looking for the mine, but never found it. She died in poverty and passed her information onto Jim Bark, a rancher. Jim searched for 15 years, but found nothing. Some believe he left wrong instructions as a cruel joke.

Some say you can still hear the old dutchman laughing in the thunder that echoes through the canyons.

The legend gained world wide attention by the death of a prospector Adolpd Ruth whose bullet ridden remains was found in 1931 gained world wide attention. But most interesting of all was scrap of paper found in his tattered coat pocket " Veni Vidi Vici" A quote from Julious ceaser in Latin, meaning I came I saw, I conquered!

From that that day onwards the treasure legend spread far and wide and even today there have been murders over this most devilish of treasure legends that haunts the imaginations of men to dream of fortune and glory.

I would be very interested to peoples opinions on the legend?


Kanacki
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 10 months ago #4478

  • Terry Soloman
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Hi Kanacki! I grew up in Arizona, hiking and packing into the Superstition, Bradshaw, Weaver, and Date Creek Mountains since I was a little kid. The Superstitions, are a gateway to and from Mexico. They were an escape route if you will, for Apache Indians and bandits (from the 1600s when enslaved Native Americans escaped the Spanish, right through the Wild West days into the early 1900s).

There is treasure in the Superstitions. I have found old Calvary buttons, Spanish silver coins, even a small gold crucifix. I don't believe for a minute that Jacob Waltz was anything more than a highgrader, who stole his retirement while working as an assayer and teamster at mines in the Bradshaw and Weaver mountains, and his last job in Wickenburg, at the Vulture Mine.

You can find gold in the Superstition Mountains, but other than a few flakes on the North and East flanks of the range, you are much more likely to find an old Spanish or bandit cache, than a lost gold mine.
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 10 months ago #4481

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AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE, if it was found they better keep it a secret, you know the gov, enviroMENTAList's, & anyone else who THINK'S they can lay a claim on it WILL make your life a living HELL !

IT'S BETTER OFF STAYING LOST !
IN ORDER TO SUCCEED ACT AS IF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FAIL !!
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 10 months ago #4487

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Hello Terry, that would be I imagine a great part of Arizonia to grow up in with wide open spaces and a real sence of freedom. Can you still camp there today? THe history of those who passed through the region must of left some interesting relics behind over the years, And perhaps your comments about lost caches is closer to the truth behind the legend?

Hello Subasmithy by the sounds of thing you have a bad experience with such things. Treasure hunting is a hard mistress to please, She can demand a high price.

But yes perhaps in some cases it may be in the finders interest to keep the legend going depending on the circumstances.

I recall somewhere the Superstitions is a park. Even if you found some thing there you may not be legally able to claim it?

Kanacki
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 10 months ago #4495

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I HAVE LEARNED THESE LESSON'S FROM OTHERS MISTAKES !

NEVER TRUST A WOMAN OR A GOVERNMENT !
IN ORDER TO SUCCEED ACT AS IF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FAIL !!
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 10 months ago #4501

  • Kanacki
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Some times you have to dance with the devil to get what you so to speak. Some times you win and Some times you lose. That is the nature of the game. I wish you luck in your treasure hunting ventures.

The Superstition story I find interesting as it is so ingrained into folklore that even if the lost mine was found tomorrow and publicised world wide. People would still be out there searching for it believing it is still lost.

It is a story that excites the failed seeker in all of us the prospect of a legendry lost gold mine awaiting discovery some where out there?

I heard an interesting story of a charles hall from denver who found a boulder placed on top of a hill. The boulder looked like it had been placed there. Hall moved the boulder and found an old mine shaft timbered in mexican fasion. His discovery started a mini gold rush and the town of goldfeild sprang up from the results of his find. It has been claimed he over next few years collected 3 million in gold.

Perhaps the superstitions was false lead given by waltz because he was sick of all users and hangers on who wanted to know where he was getting his gold from? Even in his dying breath he may of seen through Julias kindness that she wanted him for his gold that gave her a false story of where the mine was?

And hence the legend we hear today.

Kanacki
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7641

  • Oroblanco
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Tag post, interesting discussion and a different version from the usual. I would have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion that Waltz was highgrading, as has been proposed for many years. I will explain, this got much longer than intended so I must beg your indulgence;

Gold ore is like fingerprints in that no two ores from different mines are exactly alike; a trained geologist and some expert assayers can tell you which mine any particular sample came from just by taking a good look at it with a jeweler's loupe. When Jacob Waltz died, beneath his bed was found some 44 pounds of extremely rich gold ore which was taken by one Dick Holmes, who claimed he had been given it. Waltz's friends Julia Thomas and her adopted son Reiney (Reinhard) Petrasch claimed he stole it. Either way, Holmes sold most of the gold to finance his own search for the mine, but kept a few pieces which he had made into jewelry, and these still exist. A geologist has compared these specimens with all of the known ore specimens at the U of Arizona which has a databank of all the known deposits in the state, and the specimens from Waltz do not match any known deposit, period.

Then there are other details, like the fact that Waltz pointed at the Superstitions and told his friends Julia and Reiney that his mine (and one remaining cache of ore) were in those mountains. Why would he tell his close friends such a lie, to get them to go to their deaths? Waltz has been accused of having stolen his gold ore from the famous Vulture mine, the Bulldog, the Mammoth and several others, yet he never worked at any of those mines and his ore is distinctly different from any of them.

There are plenty of skeptics out there who don't even believe that Waltz even existed but he was a real person, he obtained his US citizenship in Los Angeles and filed a homestead on a piece of ground inside of Phoenix city limits (today) in 1868; he had discovered three other rich gold mines in the Bradshaws in the years previous to this, and signed a couple of petitions asking for the government to send troops to protect the miners while he was living and working there. Waltz was seen selling gold ore in Florence by several witnesses, and smaller amounts at several other locations. He lived a thrifty life in Phoenix but often would disappear into the hills, many times he was followed but always eluded his trackers. Dick Holmes was one of those he caught tracking him, and Holmes never tried it again.

Were it all just a cover story for the theft of ore, one has to wonder why he would have told such a story to his friends, for he went so far as to sell of thousands of dollars worth of his own gold stash to help Julia save her bakery business, and even attempted to take them to the mine once before he died. They traveled as far as the rio Azul, camped for the night but during the night his pneumonia got much worse and they took him back to town or it is very likely we would not even have a story of the lost Dutchman at all today.

Dick Holmes certainly believed Waltz had a mine, and spent the rest of his life searching for it, his son Brownie continued the search for the rest of his life and his partner Clay Wurst continued from then, and still does to this day. Reiney and Julia certainly believed he had a mine too for they also went searching, resulting in Julia losing her home and business, Reiney got his real father and brother to come help in the search and all of them hunted it for the rest of their lives.

Don't expect that someone is going to simply stumble across this mine; for one thing Waltz did not do a lot of extensive work on it, in fact according to one source, the opening is no larger than a barrel, and Waltz laid in several layers of ironwood logs then covered in the opening with rocks and earth so well that he claimed you could drive an Army pack train over it and never see it. Once, while trying to tell Reiney how to find the mine, he said;

"Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

A mine of that size, hidden in the vastness of the Superstition mountains, is not going to be easy to find by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't believe it exists, you are guaranteed never to find it.

One last thing and I will shut up, I get carried away on this topic pretty easily but SO many different people have all claimed they found this lost mine that it is no longer funny. The finders started reporting it way back as early as 1896, just a few years after Waltz's death, and most of the old newspaper reports were different in that the discoverers really did have a gold mine and gold to show for it; in none of those old cases had they actually found Waltz's mine but a different rich gold mine, which for an old prospector like me is really what you are looking for so the name is not a big deal, but in modern times we see a lot of people who claim they found it and all the gold is supposedly long gone. This is to put it mildly, so extremely unlikely as to be almost impossible. No gold mining operation ever gets ALL of the gold out, always some small amount is left behind for it is not economical to mine out every single speck of gold. So you can go to any old played-out gold mine, poke around a bit and find some ore that could then be compared to the database or the known Waltz specimens, and prove you had found it, but we have so many folks today that find some old prospect hole or tunnel, often by simply looking at aerial photos or satellite imagery, and not one speck of gold to back up their claims. So I am sorry if I offend anyone claiming to have found the Lost Dutchman by this method but I need to see some gold, not a mountain of it, just a piece the size of a hickory nut would do for an ore comparison and settle the matter for good in a scientific way.

There are quite literally hundreds of lost mines and ledges, pockets of placer gold that were once found and have been lost since just in Arizona alone, the number is in the thousands for the western US and northern Mexico. A few have been rediscovered, like the less famous Breyfogle in CA or the Vekol in AZ, which produced millions in silver. It is surprisingly easy for a mine to get lost too, something as simple as brush growing up can conceal a mine opening so well that you can literally stand in front of one, fifteen feet away, and never see it. I don't wish to discourage anyone from hunting the Lost Dutchman, not by a long shot and quite the opposite really, just keep in mind that it is not going to be easy, for Waltz went to some lengths to conceal it and the Apaches may have even added to that. But who knows, perhaps a heavy rain or mud slide may un-cover the mine tomorrow?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, thank you for your time and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS I am attaching a pic of a match box made from Waltz's gold ore; the photo tends to put a slight red-green cast to the colors so don't go by the colors entirely; in particular the quartz is much more white and not reddish when you see it in person, but anyway this is the sort of vein he was mining and is still hidden up in the Superstition mountains, waiting for someone to find it. Waltz said that there was enough gold left in his mine, showing, to make millionaires of twenty men - and at the time, gold was at $20.67 per ounce! This image is hidden for guests. Please log in or register to see it.
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Last Edit: 7 years 4 months ago by Oroblanco. Reason: forgot another detail
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7645

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Driving through the Superstitions Mountains in the early 60's I was told about Indians, ambushs and Gold. I was told that the Indians protected the Gold. When I look at it all in my minds I see a mine that really is there....but for some reason I also see a huge earthquake that has closed it....I see a tall guardian...not unlike the needle that stands over it with tons of rubble around her feet....I also see many serpents in the area...Does any of this make sense to anyone?
Love like there is no tomorrow!
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7658

:ohmy: Listening, but do need some sock coffee. --> (_)P Oro ?

Don Jose de La Mancha
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7660

  • texastee2007
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mmmmmmm only if your sweet mule will take the first swig....LOL how is she?
Love like there is no tomorrow!
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7682

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Don't know why but I had a dream of this last night...I have never studied about the Lost Dutchman or put any real effort into research.....It is too far away for me to travel and I do not have the equipment to even try and find it....so that being said maybe it will mean something to someone who has the resources to find it. Or it may make for a good laugh.

In my dream there was a Conquistador helmet...as I do listen to my dreams...I am thinking that the old miner found Spanish gold that was hidden....does any of this make sense to anyone or is it possible? Has anything like this ever been found? Hope it helps.
Love like there is no tomorrow!
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7683

Question, can you imagine how it would be with a metal helmet in the summer in Ariz /Superstitons??

Also, how would one smell after months without taking your leather or metal armor off?. Injuns ya know.

Sheesh I know just how an effective a girl repellent can be developed after ony two weeks on the trail with both mine and my mules sweat combined. :blush:

I can just imagine the early Spanish with months of not taking a bath, just adding new sweat daily to the accumulated mess of sweat and insect life---sigh.

Course today's similarity would be Oro sleeping with his Baskervilles. :(

Don Jose de La Mancha
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7684

  • texastee2007
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Very good point Don, you always make a reality check....still my friend I would love to be there if they ever dig all the tons of debrie out of the opening.....and see what is inside. I believe it very well may be one of the things inside....no matter how it got there.


Not sure how he dressed....but didn't Francisco Vazquez de Coronado track through Texas, New Mexico and Arizona?

As far as smell.. even in the hot Texas sun....you do well to bath a couple of times a day.
Love like there is no tomorrow!
Last Edit: 7 years 4 months ago by texastee2007. Reason: spelling error
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7842

G'day oro, BETH & hounds
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7843

  • Oroblanco
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My compadre TexasTee wrote
When I look at it all in my minds I see a mine that really is there....but for some reason I also see a huge earthquake that has closed it....I see a tall guardian...not unlike the needle that stands over it with tons of rubble around her feet....I also see many serpents in the area...Does any of this make sense to anyone?

Well there was a great earthquake in the 1890's that several theorists have proposed resulted in covering up the lost mine forever, the same earthquake also used as an excuse for why the Lost Adams cannot be found, suggesting that the zig-zag canyon got destroyed in that case. The needle could refer to Weaver's, Miners, Picket Post or several other lessor known (and smaller) rock pinnacles of the area. There are a fair number of snakes in the area, more than some areas for sure. So yes pretty much everything you posted makes sense.

TexasTee also wrote
In my dream there was a Conquistador helmet...as I do listen to my dreams...I am thinking that the old miner found Spanish gold that was hidden....does any of this make sense to anyone or is it possible? Has anything like this ever been found? Hope it helps.

Hmm - dreams are heavy with symbolism, so things may not mean literally what you see and recall. As to our mutual amigo's response about how hot metal armor is for the wearers, that certainly did not prevent the Spanish soldiers from wearing it as life protection in their day of conquest. Yes they were hot, heavy and sweaty to wear, but could stop most arrows, stones and spears used by the Indians so had value, plus a soldier follows orders regardless of any discomfort, if ordered to wear their armor, they would wear it in 120 degree heat. I will point to some of the journals and diaries of Spanish soldiers, such as those whom accompanied the infamous Orellana expedition down the Amazon river in jungle heat, with armor rusting on their bodies. Semper fidelis et de gloria dei, comfort is not a factor.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote
Course today's similarity would be Oro sleeping with his Baskervilles.

Ever smell a Husky dog? They do not smell like the ordinary run-o-the-mill pooch, in fact they are as fastidious as any cat and smell almost like young puppies their entire life. Unless of course they had a chance to roll in a long-dead critter, which is done as a cover scent to help in hunting. Then it is an acquired thing as to olfactory attractiveness. Don't worry amigo, you will likely find out what they smell like after a night with them keeping you warm and safe, laying on top of you, and sooner rather than later!
:woohoo:

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7844

Oro, no coffee?? You posted --> Don't worry amigo, you will likely find out what they smell like after a night with them keeping you warm and safe, laying on top of you, and sooner rather than later!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thoroughly intend to find out asap.

Don Jose d eLa Manchs
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7847

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Hmm I can't find any coffee emoticon to post; hope this will do:

coffee, coffee coffee
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7848

  • texastee2007
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Oroblanco wrote:
My compadre TexasTee wrote
When I look at it all in my minds I see a mine that really is there....but for some reason I also see a huge earthquake that has closed it....I see a tall guardian...not unlike the needle that stands over it with tons of rubble around her feet....I also see many serpents in the area...Does any of this make sense to anyone?

Well there was a great earthquake in the 1890's that several theorists have proposed resulted in covering up the lost mine forever, the same earthquake also used as an excuse for why the Lost Adams cannot be found, suggesting that the zig-zag canyon got destroyed in that case. The needle could refer to Weaver's, Miners, Picket Post or several other lessor known (and smaller) rock pinnacles of the area. There are a fair number of snakes in the area, more than some areas for sure. So yes pretty much everything you posted makes sense.

TexasTee also wrote
In my dream there was a Conquistador helmet...as I do listen to my dreams...I am thinking that the old miner found Spanish gold that was hidden....does any of this make sense to anyone or is it possible? Has anything like this ever been found? Hope it helps.

Hmm - dreams are heavy with symbolism, so things may not mean literally what you see and recall. As to our mutual amigo's response about how hot metal armor is for the wearers, that certainly did not prevent the Spanish soldiers from wearing it as life protection in their day of conquest. Yes they were hot, heavy and sweaty to wear, but could stop most arrows, stones and spears used by the Indians so had value, plus a soldier follows orders regardless of any discomfort, if ordered to wear their armor, they would wear it in 120 degree heat. I will point to some of the journals and diaries of Spanish soldiers, such as those whom accompanied the infamous Orellana expedition down the Amazon river in jungle heat, with armor rusting on their bodies. Semper fidelis et de gloria dei, comfort is not a factor.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote
Course today's similarity would be Oro sleeping with his Baskervilles.

Ever smell a Husky dog? They do not smell like the ordinary run-o-the-mill pooch, in fact they are as fastidious as any cat and smell almost like young puppies their entire life. Unless of course they had a chance to roll in a long-dead critter, which is done as a cover scent to help in hunting. Then it is an acquired thing as to olfactory attractiveness. Don't worry amigo, you will likely find out what they smell like after a night with them keeping you warm and safe, laying on top of you, and sooner rather than later!
:woohoo:

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


Maybe I need an old map of the area....I could get lucky.....LOL If my dream is correct and the needle is your Weaver.. Your Dutchman is within Eye Site of the area.
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7989

  • Oroblanco
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Somewhere online is the 1902 Florence quadrangle USGS topo, is that old enough? I can't find it this moment but it is definitely online somewhere.

One last bit on the Spanish soldiers and their armor; in the time of Coronado it was customary for each soldier to have an armor-bearer, usually an Indian servant or slave, that packed the heavy steel around until the call for battle came. Also if there were losses the armor might get stashed rather than pack it back. Just a thought.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Last Edit: 7 years 4 months ago by Oroblanco.
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Re: The Curse of the lost Dutchman Gold mine 7 years 4 months ago #7991

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What is this Mr. O? You only get on at or after midnight? Your keeping mighty strange hours my friend.

May you be blessed!
Dump a democrat!
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